July 06, 2005
Ralph Peters on Iraq, the Kurds and the State Department
July 6 - Ralph Peters on
Rogue Diplomats:
July 6, 2005 -- CONDI Rice has an Iraq problem. Among her subordinates. A new generation of "Arabists" wants to write off our Kurdish allies for the pipedream of winning friends among our enemies.
Our impressive secretary of state is proud to stand up for freedom and human rights. But career elements in her department, serving in Washington and Iraq, have become a threat to the long-term success of American policy — and to our values.
Problems with the blinkered diplomats at State are not new and I know that an aircraft carrier can't change course on a dime. But does it take 3 years to effect a course change? I think not.
Maybe Condi should put on those fantabulous boots and do a bit of Nancy Sinatra-style walking.
(Via Newsbeat1)
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July 04, 2005
Bayonets!
Image from Laser-buzz
July 4 - The title refers to that unexpected order which Col. Joshua L. Chamberlain gave his troops after their ammuniton was exhausted while they were desperately trying to hold Little Round Top. I've always been in awe of Chamberlain and the men he commanded. Their defense of that position was pivotal in that which became known as the Battle of Gettysburg, and it is entirely appropriate that we celebrate the Fourth of July and commemorate the Battle of Gettysburg and the two milestones in our own history: the grand vision which established the union and the ultimate test to maintain that vision in the union. The fierce determination of those men who fought that battle, held their positions and stopped Lee's army bequeathed to us a new understanding, in Lincoln's words of what we owe them:
It is for us the living rather to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced.
In today's cultural battles, maybe we need look no further than Lincoln to see one key difference: there are those who regard the losses of World Wars I and II, Korea and Vietnam and respond "Never again," and there are those who take Lincoln's admonition to heart and recognize that the fallen have left unfinished work for future hands to take up and respond "Count me in."
From Bill Whittle's immortal essay History:
... By the second day of July in 1863, the mighty armies of the Union had been beaten in every major battle except Antietam – and that had been not much better than a tie. And they had not just been defeated. They had been thrashed. Whipped. Sent reeling again and again and again by a half-starved collection of scarecrows in homemade uniforms.
None of this was lost on the Union men that morning, not the least on that Professor of Rhetoric from Bowdoin College. He had seen, first hand, the disasters at Fredericksburg and Chancellorsville. ..
Were the South to win that July day, the first northern state capitol – Harrisburg – would fall to the Confederates. Nothing would stop them from reaching Baltimore, and Washington. If the Army of the Potomac lost yet again on this field, the South would very likely take Washington, the British would enter the war on the side of the Confederacy and the mighty Royal Navy would break the Union blockade. In the words of Shelby Foote, the war would be over -- lost.
The Federal position was strong, but it had a fatal weakness. At the southern end of the Union line were two small hills. The smaller and nearer, called Little Round Top by the locals, overlooked the entire Union position. Artillery placed on that hill could fire down the entire Union line, wreaking carnage on the men below. The entire position would become untenable.
No one was on Little Round Top.
It isn't hard to imagine how very discouraged these men must have become during the course of the Civil War, knowing they had been repeatedly beaten, outmanuevered and even hoodwinked by Lee and his generals and, in what must have seemed to be the ultimate humiliation, now they were fighting on Northern soil. Let's not forget that Union soldiers had "skedaddled" from earlier battles, that the draft was extremely unpopular and that the press hated and ridiculed Lincoln. British cotton mills actutely felt the lack of Southern cotton and the danger that the incomparable British navy might intervene and break the Northern blockade was ever present. (I believe it due mostly to the vigorous agitation of anti-slavery organizations in England that this had not yet happened.) The South was encouraged by France's offer to mediate a truce and, to put it bluntly, Northern generals sucked and were capable mostly of failing to pursue the advantage to achieve victory.
Antietam, which was a "draw," had 13,724 Confederate casualties and 12,410 Union casualties. Chancellorsville had 12,764 Confederate to 16,792 Union casualties.
Gettysburg had 23,049 Union casualties and 28,063 Confederate casualties.
We can pull out worse casualties figures from World Wars I and II, but it misses the point: these Civil War figures represent Amercians killing Americans. A civil war is the darkest of the dark, and less a source of pride than of introspection.
So why does Rhetorics Professor Joshua L. Chamblerlain figure so prominently in our heritage? Professor Bainbridge quotes from Chamberlain in Today in History (posted July 2) from Chamberlain's personal recollections on the exultant response to his order:
I stepped to the colors. The men turned towards me. One word was enough- 'BAYONETS!' It caught like fire and swept along the ranks. The men took it up with a shout, one could not say whether from the pit or the song of the morning sat, it was vain to order 'Forward!'. No mortal could have heard it in the mighty hosanna that was winging the sky.
I can feel that moment; I can see the men, knowing they were out of ammunition, who turned expectantly to a commander they respected and trusted - awaiting their orders and hoping against hope that he would pull a miracle out of the fire and achieve victory. And I can hear their roar because I responded in just that manner on
September 20, 2001 when my hope that my government would take the war to our attackers was proven justified.
The men holding Little Round Top were not fools nor were they cannon fodder; they were intelligent, reasoning men who knew precisely what was at stake at Gettysburg and they were determined to hold it because they knew the urgent strategic reasons that required Lee's Army be stopped there and then, and their rightful heirs are those who are capable of recognizing the same urgency in the current struggle.
Heh, Southern by Blog says that Joshua Chamberlain and the 20th Maine DID NOT Save the Union By Their Selves and of course he is right, but the reason Chamberlain is lionized is precisely because of that audacious order "Bayonets!" and in no small part due to his loving exhortation:
“Stand firm,, ye boys of Maine, for not once in a century are men permitted to bear such responsibilities!"
He may be wrong on one point; it seems men have been permitted to bear such responsibilities more than once a century!
I look at us today and think - hope - we have emerged from nearly forty years of self-doubt and self-criticism with renewed confidence tempered by self-knowledge. As Leonard Bernstein wrote in Candide,
We're neither pure, nor wise, nor good
We'll do the best we know.
Let history judge that we are mere mortals who lack divine wisdom yet do our best within our mortal means, but let it also record that we defiantly set our sights high:
We will not waver; we will not tire; we will not falter; and we will not fail. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm Reliance on the Protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.
Let freedom ring!
(Bainbridge and Southern Blog links via Mudville Gazette, and Civil War casualty figures are from American Civil War Battle Statistics.)
[I apologize if this seems excessively maudlin - I just get so damned sentimental on July 4th! Those who are offended by the reverence I hold for those past and present who doggedly pursue the ideals on which our union was founded can bite me.]
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1
Count me in too Debbye! And there are a few more of us north of the border that you can count on as well.
Posted by: John Crittenden at July 05, 2005 12:00 AM (MjDHk)
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I remember standing in the front yard of our farm in southern Manitoba about 1942 or 43 with my mom, sis, grandmother and grandfather. A squadron of planes flew over and one of them dipped it's wing. My grandmother said "that's the plane Billy is on." That was the custom when a plane flew over the home of any of the airmen on board. Billy was her son and my uncle. He was on his way to Britain and on to France. He was a bombardier in a Lancaster.
I remember, only the next year, standing in a park with the same family members in Essex Ontario. We were singing with the band and burning the effigy of Hitler. I had lost three uncles by then and we were wondering if there would be more. There was one more.
When I saw Chretien, and before him, Trudeau, pin a red flower on one day a year, after what they were doing to our armed forces, I felt a sense of detachment and I remembered my uncles and all their friends who had not come home, so that we could all wear a red flower. Today when I see Martin wear a red flower I just feel a sense of rage and bitterness. It's one thing to forget. It's another to pretend you care.
Soon there will be no more red flowers.
Posted by: John Crittenden at July 05, 2005 12:17 AM (MjDHk)
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Debbye,
you Americans have so much history to be proud of - a fierce and independent nation. I have been to Gettysburg a number of times; we have friends and business associates there. I was taken by its proximity to both Camp David and the crash site of
Flight 93.
I was overwhelmed at the magnitude of the battlefield and the sheer numbers who gave their lives there. Getttysburg is a town of History and the people who live there know it. It is truly awe-inspiring to visit.
It was interesting to read how Lincoln was unpopular in the press in his own time, yet is regarded today as one of the greatest of Presidents. May the same be said in time for Bush Jr.
Thank you for a wonderful post!
Posted by: Bill Strong at July 05, 2005 01:18 AM (VtTgE)
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I must define "maudlin" differently, because that was one helluva rousing post! Thank you.
Posted by: Ted at July 06, 2005 11:44 AM (blNMI)
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"Those who are offended by the reverence I hold for those past and present who doggedly pursue the ideals on which our union was founded can bite me."
I just had the funniest image of Lincoln including that at the end of one of his addresses.
Posted by: Jay at July 06, 2005 04:11 PM (PuNh2)
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John and Bill, those are truly inspiring memories.
Ted, thank you!
Jay, I wish he had! (Or maybe he did, when he sent that barrel of whisky to Grant ...)
Posted by: Debbye at July 06, 2005 06:18 PM (+0Dnx)
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I enjoyed your comments a lot. Am a student of the war and of Lincoln. Chamberlain is being subject to revisionism these days.
Would like to communicate with you if you are interested - dickfreeman0827@comcast.net
Dick
Posted by: Dick Freeman at July 06, 2005 10:54 PM (fcwQ0)
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For those who walk and hold the line, I thank you
July 4 - I tried to post this last night before I went to work, but Munu was kinda wonky and it wouldn't take.
Anyway, before I catch some sleep I want to be sure to thank the men and women in Afghanistan, Iraq, South Korea, Guatamala and around the world who are defending those freedoms that we will be celebrating today.
Three years ago, when many of us were considering whether to encourage proposing action in Iraq, I thought about the stories I had been told about Vietnam, both the trivial and the grand, and fully understood that the risky enterprise of ending first Gulf War would lay a burden of responsibility on us all (as indeed do all weighty national decisions.)
The generals report that the troops ask if we still support them; the short answer is Yes! and a longer answer is abso-freaking-lutely!
I'm a blogger, not a reporter, and so I can elect not to post about our losses especially as I write from a foreign country, but I do grieve for the fine men and women we've lost in this operation even as I renew my resolve that their sacrifice not be in vain.
A little known character trait of many Americans is that we often don't talk about those things that lie deep within our core. We made the decision to go to Iraq, we made that decision with our eyes wide open, and nobody lied to us or misled us. We knew on September 11 that we would have to deal with Iraq sooner rather than later and, as the President laid out our goals in Afghanistan in his address to Congress, we understood that the promise he made to drive out the Taliban and bring consensual rule to Afghanistan was the opening shot in a battle that would save the people of the Mid-east as well as ourselves.
We understood these things as only a free people can understand them: instinctively, intuitively, and in every fibre of our being because Sept. 11 reconnected us with our national charcter as well as our values and love for freedom in ways that - and I say this with complete humility - transcended all other experiences in my lifetime.
The real question is not why millions of Americans recognize the connection between Sept. 11 and Saddam Hussein but rather why others do not. Us ignorant folks seemingly have a better grasp of how lives that stagnate under repression and lack of meaningful ways to express the aspirations and ambitions of the individual person can spawn the desperation of terrorism than all the nuanced fools who proclaim themselves to be our intellectual betters.
So yes, we support America's sons and daughters in the military utterly, completely and with the full weight of our hopes for a free future and we ask your forgiveness for the sacrifices we have asked of you.
Yes, we support you; yes, we support your mission and, yes, we can hardly wait until you come home.
Godspeed, and Happy July 4th!
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"We made the decision to go to Iraq, we made that decision with our eyes wide open, and nobody lied to us or misled us."
So, the weapons of mass destruction have yet to be discovered according to you?
"The real question is not why millions of Americans recognize the connection between Sept. 11 and Saddam Hussein but rather why others do not."
Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11 and Iraq spawned NONE of the dreadful 19. Your friends in Saudi Arabia were responsible for most of the 19 as well as the state supported wahabbi institutes that teach muslim children to hate infidels the world over.
If anyone needed to have the crap bombed out of them it was SA. Iraq was a threat to no one but its own people - hardly a reason to attack...
Posted by: Canuck at July 04, 2005 10:46 AM (Ihcse)
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Well said and I thank the troops also.
Posted by: Dex at July 04, 2005 11:45 AM (kO17P)
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Thanks, Dex, and a Happy 4th to you!
Canuck, it takes real talent to completely miss the point yet, by doing so, prove my point.
Posted by: Debbye at July 04, 2005 11:34 PM (eAlPX)
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Canuck, Saddam Hussein was indeed involved in 9-11. Don't believe what the MSM tell you. I could go on but what's the use. I've met many others like you. All of them, as are you, were ignorant of the facts. After the Oil for Food scandal and Canada's connections to it, including the leadership of the Liberal government, how can anyone side with them against the Iraq war. I imagine that if the Liberals had supported the Iraq war then you would have too.
Debbye, I too support your troops. It's sad to say, though, that close to half of Americans do not, despite what some of them may say.
Posted by: John Crittenden at July 05, 2005 12:30 AM (MjDHk)
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"Canuck, Saddam Hussein was indeed involved in 9-11. Don't believe what the MSM tell you."
My friend, your tinfoil hat needs adjustment. You've spent so much time reading far-right blogs you have actually started believing some of the "Saddam was involved" conspiracy theories developed after no WMD were found
They're just as asinine as the theories the far left has come up with regarding Bush being responsible.
Posted by: Canuck at July 05, 2005 07:48 AM (Ihcse)
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Canuck, go talk to CW about Saddam having no connections with 9-11: http://nosuchblog.blog-city.com/
Posted by: Dave J at July 05, 2005 06:01 PM (TPPlj)
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Went there - read that - same old conspiracy nonsense. The far right and the far left have much in common - both sides are willing to believe piffle if it furthers their beliefs...
Posted by: Canuck at July 06, 2005 10:07 AM (BeZe2)
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And the corruption of the U.N. Oil-for-food program? Is that piffle, or best ignored as it shatters the illusions of those of us who once respected the U.N.?
Posted by: Debbye at July 06, 2005 06:21 PM (+0Dnx)
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What has the U.N. Oil-for-food program to do with the fact that WMD were not found in Iraq? What has the U.N. Oil-for-food program to do with the fact that there is no connection between Sept. 11 and Saddam Hussein?
Honestly, you right-wing nutbars will seemingly do anything or say anything to cloud the facts: we were lied to about Iraq. Full stop.
Posted by: Canuck at July 07, 2005 09:28 AM (32YDX)
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I am tired of posting and re-posting links to and quotes from Bush speeches that laid out our strategy in Afghanistan and the mid-east.
Americans knew fully that the long-term goal was to help establish a consensual government in Iraq: one that honoured human rights, allowed press and speech freedoms, and was prosperous.
Shorthand: life, liberty, propsperity.
One that might,
might, by example give hope and inspire others to achieve those goals.
Has it never occurred to you that you are stubbornly clinging to a red herring rather than face the fact that Canada failed to participate in this bold initiative? That Canada wanted the stability of a murderous tyrant rather than the risks of liberty?
If you really can't connect the Oil-for-food program to bin Laden's accusation that the USA was responsible for thousands of dead Iraqi infants then you are willfully blind. Full stop.
Posted by: Debbye at July 09, 2005 02:09 PM (zIRN/)
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"If you really can't connect the Oil-for-food program to bin Laden's accusation that the USA was responsible for thousands of dead Iraqi infants then you are willfully blind. Full stop."
Obfuscation of the worst sort. I supported Bush and Blair initially in the war because I believed their main plank that Iraq was a clear and present danger to our society. They were not. He had a 1960's military and no WMD. They were not a threat to anyone save their own population (which is essentially the story in most of the middle east) Sorry that it irritates you that this is a fact.
Iraq was a blunder. Oil for food is an obfuscation device employed by the right wing to obscure the fact that
Iraq had no WMDs, they were not linked to islamic scumbags and there was no reason to attack Syria would have been a better choice (let alone Pakistan of Saudi arabia - the home of terrorism)
Canada was correct (although I disagreed at the time to the chagrin of friends and family) to not attack Iraq. The question you have to ask yourself, are you safer now that Iraq is on the precipice of being a theocracy?
Posted by: Canuck at July 09, 2005 03:43 PM (G1N3s)
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Did the Iraqi people have a future under Saddam? Do those who live in the mid-east have futures under the despots that run their countries?
As for the UN Oil for food program, how quickly we forget that the suffering of the Iraqi people under the sanctions was a major grievance and one upon which Osama bin Laden justified his fatwa on the USA.
There other connections between Saddam, al Qaeda and Sept. 11 that can be regarded as circumstantial and/or nebulous and thus wouldn't pass muster in a criminal proceeding but connecting the sanctions against Iraq with the causus belli of OBL cannot.
Posted by: Debbye at July 10, 2005 01:14 AM (FmuWk)
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Please. You still ignore the main plank of your presidents argument to go to war. It was a lie. We don't attack countries because their leaders are despots. Otherwise, we would have attacked every country in Africa. Iraq was never a threat. There were no WMDs. Your president lied.
It won't be long until some mad mullah starts running Iraq as an islamic theocracy and then they WILL be a threat...
Posted by: Canuck at July 10, 2005 10:04 AM (G1N3s)
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July 02, 2005
Oh, Canada
July 2 - Excellent post by Flea -
He's tipped - in which he links to a post which sadly observes the lack of coherent policies in matters
other than gay marriage by the Conservative Party of Canada.
The post linked to this one from N=1 who wrote some follow-up posts here, here and here. I would strongly urge Americans to read these posts, as - and I honestly mean no disrespect by this - Canadian conservatives are to some extent freed from the personal concerns of war to examine and debate issues over which we are less focused but which we should not entirely ignore.
Although I have a great deal of admiration for Stephen Harper personally and although terming a union between gay couples "marriage" is not as important to me as to others, I was worried when opposition to gay marriage was the rallying point around which the Canadian Alliance and Progressive Conservative parties merged yet, as I believed there were sound reasons around which to form a political party to oppose Liberal rule, I hoped they would be able to build the party on the basis of principled opposition to the imposition of nanny statism.
Regarding the issue of gay marriage in the U.S., I am opposed to a Constitutional amendment that defines marriage (I don't think it is properly a Constitutional issue) but must admit that it has at least initiated some serious discussion over the issue, something that was missing up here as it was imposed - rightly or wrongly - by judicial fiat.
I may have been unprepared to expand my definition of marriage beyond the traditional one of being a union between a man and a woman, but it is something I know I will come to accept especially now that it has become law in Canada. Legislating it as a right and then later removing it is not something I believe I can accept because I don't believe it would be just.
Like many others, I take issue with the manner in which it came to become law but we've got out own Supreme Court issues and I am far more concerned over the recent U.S. Supreme Court Kelo decision which stripped personal property rights than the Canadian Supreme Court which awarded personal rights and am much more willing to fight the Kelo ruling than Bill C-38 (although Angry could be right, and this is will provoke contingent issues that will deepen Canadian polarization - although I fail to see how any potential challenge to monogamy can in truth be connected to recognition of gay marriage; the definition of marriage remains, in law, as being between two people.)
To put it more concisely, the decision in Kelo vs. New London has put things in perspective. Kelo clarifies that the true battleground is that of personal freedom and property rights vs. the encroachment of the state - which actually believes it has rights not accorded to it by the people - and not that of loving gay couples who want their committment to one another to be acknowledged by the state and, I suspect as importantly, by the people.
The failure of the CPC to assert itself confidently and aggressively in matters other than gay marriage at a period when Canadians are confronting increasingly higher taxes, the disaster of their health care system, the decay of their armed forces and the corruption not only of the ruling Liberal Party but of government itself has been disappointing. It is comparable to the Sept. 10 mentality of Democrats; if they truly believe that gay marriage is the most important issue facing Canadians then they are seriously out of touch with the fundamental issues facing people up here and almost as unfit to run the country as the Liberals.
The Conservative Party up here has behaved much like the Democrats in that both restrict themselves to opposing rather than proposing and thus have failed to electrify voters with vision and solutions. When will either of them grow up? The people of both countries deserve better.
July 3 - 17:20: Maybe I failed to make my one main point about gay marriage strongly enough:
To reiterate: the one prospect I find insupportable is that of allowing gays to marry yet a future Conservative Party government suddenly declaring those marriages null and void. Try to put yourselves in the position of marrying, making plans for a future together and even making joint financial investments and then imagine being told your marriage is no longer legitimate.
Forget the circusy atmosphere we see on television and some of the wilder "activists" showcased by a sensationalist media and focus on the human face of this issue. Gay couples love one another - in probably the same variables of intensity and committment as straight couples - and I believe their love is entitled to respect.
The damage to the institution of marriage was done long before gays emerged from the closet. We can blame easier divorces, the pill, Roe vs. Wade, or the sexual revolution and even the "disposable society" but we simply cannot with any honesty blame gays much less instituting gay marriage.
Continuing to oppose gay marriage now that it has passed in Parliament is much too much like the "selected not elected" crowd that has disrupted U.S. politics far too much in our recent past, and the CPC is likely to face the same kind of backlash that Democrats encountered in '04.
Lastly, a suspicious person (like me) might wonder if the focus on gay marriage as The Most Important Issue of the Day is intentionally diverting attention from other bread-and-butter issues.
There are serious challenges facing Canada and the CPC should endeavour to propose solutions to them. At the risk of getting cyber-slammed, I really think they need to "move on" and exhibit some freaking leadership.
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Have you seen this? I hope it works:
http://www.freestarmedia.com/hotellostliberty2.html
Posted by: Jay at July 03, 2005 07:41 AM (PuNh2)
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"although I fail to see how any potential challenge to monogamy can in truth be connected to recognition of gay marriage; the definition of marriage remains, in law, as being between two people."
Debbye,
What is there to stop polygamist marriage? What is there to stop adult-child marriage? How about man-dog marriage?
The rules have been thrown out. Any objection that applies to polygamist marriage or adult-child marriage or man-dog marriage is identical to the objections to gay marriage; in the eyes of the Supreme court or the government they would be just as invalid.
Yes, property rights are important. However, societies have functioned without property rights (for example, there are no property rights in Canada). Can you really say that a society can function once it descends into depravity?
Posted by: Ed Minchau at July 03, 2005 12:13 PM (pPVQ0)
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Man-child will have to come first. Man-dog marriage would have two problems to deal with - inter-species and age (unless one finds a dog over 1
.
But, give them time.
Posted by: Jay at July 03, 2005 01:07 PM (PuNh2)
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I get what that what you're saying, Ed, in that the floodgates may have been opened, yet I just don't see the logical connection between gay marriage, which is restricted as being between two persons, and the other possible consequences you mention.
Polygamy is permitted in many Muslim countries, yet gay marriage is not. The basis for any challenge to our definition of marriage as a monogamous union won't be dependent on the legality of gay unions, but more likely on cultural grounds but economics will probably factor in refusing to allow it.
Child marriage is tricky because the age of consent is so low (I think too low) and, although I am not a lawyer, I suspect a challenge there is more likely to be based on the age of consent than on enshrined gay marriage.
Marriage to a child (i.e, someone under the age of consent) would be pedophilia which is most definitely not the same as homosexuality. As a side note, more girls are sexually assaulted than boys, yet we seem to be more outraged when boys are assaulted.
Jay, the age of consent up here goes as low as 14! Besides, attempting to legalize inter-specifies marriage will likely face stiff opposition from PETA, and we really don't want to contemplate the advertising campaign they'd launch to fight it. And yes, I saw the Souter link you mentioned above but wasn't sure it if was a joke (it would fit nicely on the Onion or Scrappleface websites) or for real.
To reiterate: the one prospect I find insupportable is that of allowing gays to marry yet a future Conservative Party government suddenly declaring those marriages null and void. That would be so very wrong.
Posted by: Debbye at July 03, 2005 04:41 PM (2Tmgx)
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Debbye, marriage used to be restricted to two persons of opposite sex. Now that the "opposite sex" restriction has been removed, what possible argument can there be to removing the "two persons" restriction? As far as I can see, there is no argument against removing the "two persons" restriction that was not already used (and declared invalid by the Supreme Court and the government) against the "opposite sex" restriction.
Similarly, the age of consent restriction no longer holds water; to uphold this restriction is to deny pedophiles equality under the law.
Even marriage with animals cannot be prohibited anymore; that would deny bestialists equality under the law.
----------------------------------------------
Is marriage a right?
If it is, then divorce cannot be a right, as the two are mutually exclusive.
If marriage is a right, and I ask a woman to marry me and she says "no", is she violating my rights?
My central point here Debbye is that this has not been thought through at all. Marriage is not a right. The arguments used to enshrine it as a right are disingenuous at best, and at the worst, plain evil. Calling gay marriage a "right" cheapens not only the term "marriage" but also "rights".
People may shrug their shoulders that the term "marriage" has been rendered meaningless by the inclusion of its opposite. What will they do when they realize that the word "right" also has been rendered meaningless?
Posted by: Ed Minchau at July 03, 2005 06:16 PM (pPVQ0)
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BTW, that Souter link is for real; someone is using eminent domain to have his house torn down to make way for a hotel.
Posted by: Ed Minchau at July 03, 2005 06:18 PM (pPVQ0)
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Debbye, I don't mean to slam you. I don't feel that I am either; I just think that this is completely wrong. And I am not limiting this to you either, I have posted this same set of questions in several blogs. If anyone responds with a single valid argument (valid meaning "not invalidated by the Supreme Court and government of Canada as an argument against same-sex marriage"), then I will spread that argument to each blog on which I have posed the question.
-------------------------------------------
Government cannot grant rights. Rights are immutable. If you accept that government can grant rights, then you must accept that government can take them away - in which case, what you are talking about are not "rights" but "privileges".
Posted by: Ed Minchau at July 03, 2005 07:12 PM (pPVQ0)
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Ed, my crack about being cyber-slammed was due to my invoking the "move on" phrase which has a different connotation for Americans, but I certainly was not referring to you!
Obviously I believe my rights are inherent, and agree with you that marriage is not a right but a freely entered social contract with or without religious blessing.
But the laws of this country pay benefits to married people in the event of death or disability. The one argument against gay marriage could be that it produces no progeny, aka future tax payers, but so many hetero couples are consciously chosing not to have children so penalizing gay couples would be inequal application of the law.
Actually, I was reading some of the comments over at N=1's blog and it struck me that any challenge to monogamous marriage would most likely be based on the basis of religous freedoms.
Pedophilia is not the same as homosexuality, and despite the failure of the courts to protect children from the predators I think any government which removed legislation which criminalizes and prosecutes pedophiles would be voted from office. It is a no go zone, probably more so today than even a year ago.
By the way, reform of the manner in which judges are selected is another excellent focus for the CPC.
One thing about which I suspect we both agree is that the federal government has no business getting involved in marriage because it is a provincial concern. That's the issue behind this one: increased centralisation.
I could wholeheartedly support the CPC formulating a platform to reduce federal rule in provincial matters!
Posted by: Debbye at July 03, 2005 07:33 PM (ybCxK)
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No need to worry about the *floodgates being opened*, as to a variety of unions under the term *Marriage*.
Marriage is a term used to depict the public recognition of two people who make vows of loyalty to each other and where having children is a possibility.
Just because a misguided government passes a bill to change the meaning of the term *Marriage*, does not mean that the term is actually changed.
Bill C-38 merely allows that the term marriage can be applied to the *Civil Bond* paperwork, but the agreement remains a civil bond.
The true meaning of the term marriage remains unchanged in the collective public mind. No number of incorrectly labeled documents will mean anything other than *civil bond*.
As that scrappy old Quebec scammer would say, *a truth is a truth, and when you know it is a truth, then it is da truth.*
73s TG
Posted by: TonyGuitar at July 03, 2005 07:55 PM (rmMzv)
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Unfortunately Tony, under the law the term has been changed. My concern is with the laws as they stand today. As Debbye said, any government that legalized pedophilia would be voted from office... but as we have seen, it is not necessary for a government to actually enact such a law. It is sufficient for the Supreme Court to rewrite the charter of rights, reading in rights where none exist.
Posted by: Ed Minchau at July 03, 2005 10:52 PM (pPVQ0)
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"Pedophilia is not the same as homosexuality"
Debbye, "it is not the same" is not a valid argument. That argument was already used by the defenders of traditional marriage (ie "same-sex relationships are not the same as traditional marriages"). Thus this argument has already been declared invalid by the Supreme Court and the government.
I have already posed this same question at Angry in the Great White North, Small Dead Animals, and Tory Blue. So far, nobody has come up with a single valid reason why polygamy, pedophilia, and bestiality should not also be included in the definition of marriage ("valid" meaning "not already considered and ruled invalid by the Supreme Court and government of Canada"). Most of the responses have been either "right on Ed" or "you're a bigot", neither of which answers my question. (I find the "you're a bigot" response particularly entertaining, considering that I am arguing for the *inclusion* or these other forms of relationship in the definition of marriage.)
Posted by: Ed Minchau at July 04, 2005 03:18 PM (pPVQ0)
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Over at AitGWN J. Bielecki brought up the only valid argument I have seen so far against pedophilia and bestiality: that at least one of the participants is incapable of legally giving consent.
So far, there have been no valid arguments against including polygamy as a legal form of marriage.
J. Bielecki brought up a further possibility: that the restriction against "intrafamily" relations is now also invalid.
I will be posting something on my blog soon to cover this issue. Thanks to all who have participated in the discussion.
Posted by: Ed Minchau at July 05, 2005 12:06 AM (pPVQ0)
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Ed, sorry about not responding. I'm not quitting the field but there was this birthday party which occupied my attention as well as this uncontrollable urge to sing "Yankee Doodle" at inopportune moments.
As to your points, the principle of "consent" will probably continue to hold sway (at least for now) but I retreat to my belief that the CPC needs to expand from what looks like a one-plank party and formulate proposals that will address unexamined judicial appointments and the unelected Senate (which is the worse kind of throwback to pre-Revolutionary War political abuse) and start acting as though they are prepared to offer Canadians thoughtful, political leadership.
But then I am an American, and one of my core beliefs is that the government should fear us.
I realize that Canadians have put up with things that would have had me and my fellow countrymen standing on the lawn of Parliament Hill in less than happy moods. You may well be right and bestiality and pedophilia will be decriminalized but it won't be because gay marriage received legislative approval but because the distance between government and the will of the people has become so vast that a revolution or national dissolution is the only remedy.
Lastly, and I have no facts to back this up, I firmly believe that most gays would also oppose decriminalizing bestiality and pedophia.
Posted by: Debbye at July 05, 2005 12:08 AM (eAlPX)
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Debbye,
Happy 4th of July, God bless America etc.
Of course, the issue of polygamy still exists, and J. Bielecki brought up "intrafamilial" relationships as well. (the questionable-content filter has rejected the more common term)
Now, while it may be that gays (and indeed the vast majority of people) would oppose bestiality and pedophilia, such opposition has been proven irrelevant. After all, homosexuality itself has progressed from "illegal", to "mental disorder", to "if you don't accept it you're a bigot", to "equal to heterosexual marriage" in less than 4 decades.
Posted by: Ed Minchau at July 05, 2005 01:41 AM (pPVQ0)
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Ed, I don't believe that homosexuality is a disorder and regard it as being as relevant to a person's character as eye colour.
I guess I see the problem boiling down to the CPC focusing on tactics rather than strategy. Their "us too" responses regarding health care and federal spending doesn't offer the electorate clear policy positions but the threat to nullify gay marriages
ex post facto sets off alarms because it is patently unfair.
We'll continue to disagree on this, I suspect! (I hope this time the comment gets posted ...)
Posted by: Debbye at July 05, 2005 04:34 PM (ABn+1)
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I have nothing to say, except, it's always fun to follow a good debate. 73's Ooops, who said that? TG
Posted by: TonyGuitar at July 07, 2005 10:57 PM (rmMzv)
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Gettysburg and Vicksburg
July 2 - Seven score and two years ago, a
pivotal battle was waged in the small Pennsylvania town of Gettysburg. A day after that battle ended, the port city of
Vicksburg surrendered to Grant.
No, I'm not about to deliver a history lesson but merely noting another conflict that tested and formed our national character -- and did so despite the opposition of much of the intelligentsia and mainstream media to that war and their contempt for the president who waged it.
There was, of course, continued "insurgency" after the formal surrender at Appomattox but I've never read any of today's self-appointed deep thinkers comparing them to the Minutemen.
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A pack, not a herd
July 2 -
Missing Idaho Girl, 8, Found Alive and Well:
COEUR D'ALENE, Idaho — Shasta Groene, whose mother, oldest brother and mother's boyfriend were bludgeoned to death at their home outside this mountain town six weeks ago, was discovered alive early Saturday morning by a waitress at a local Denny's restaurant.
[...]
Local news reports said Duncan and Shasta Groene walked into the Denny's at about 2 a.m. PDT. A waitress noticed the girl and, after consulting photos in a recent newspaper, called 911. She then served the girl a milkshake and stalled the pair's service until police arrived. (Emphasis added)
I'm groping for words to express my awe at this waitress: she kept her cool, stalled the monster, and later comforted Shasta after her abductor had been taken into custody.
This is one damned appropriate story as we celebrate July 4th. The strength of our country depends not on whatever politicians and bureaucrats are in charge but in the willingness of each and every citizen to stand up and take action when required by chance and circumstance.
I humbly retract a comment I made here on the coverage of the missing girl in Aruba [I know her name, but don't want googlers to land here thinking I'm covering the story] because the waitress consulted a recent newspaper to confirm her suspicion that the young girl was Shasta. There is indeed value in maintaining hope even when it seems to be in vain.
19:36: It (stupidly) hadn't occurred to me that people might not understand the meaning of the title. This explains it.
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Some very good points made on the conduct of the American public in diasaster situations.I would just like to contrast the responses of the 'civilized" Europeons during one. ..The sinking of that Swedish(if my memory serves me right)ferry about a decade ago comes to mind. if you remember it,the front vehicle loading doors got battered in by waves...There were many disgraceful stories coming out afterwards about how people were stepping on women and children to get to lifeboats and rescue gear.The one I remember most is of a women with a broken leg on the deck crying for help,and being walked on by people who just ignored her......And a recent story in the Vancouver Sun about how Canadian attitudes are much more "Europeon" then American just made me feel sad and disgusted.I don't really feel anything in common with the peoples who brought the world such delights as "ethnic cleansing",concentration camps(English first,I know),pogroms ,and TWO,count em,two world wars.
Posted by: big al at July 03, 2005 04:53 PM (Wk5E4)
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Canada may be far less European than they think, big al. People here aren't quite at the point of waiting passively for the "authorities" to handle crisis.
I remember the August, 2003, blackout quite well and the city dwellers in Toronto not only coped but, in the best North American spirit of self-sufficiency and optimism, turned it around to make lemonade.
Citizens directed traffic, checked on elderly neighbours both in homes and in high rises, and had community barbecues and block parties. We stargazed, howled at the moon, and went for family walks.
Whenever I start to despair about this city I remember that experience. When the chips were down we pulled together, and I hope the lessons from that experience endure!
Posted by: Debbye at July 03, 2005 05:09 PM (2Tmgx)
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